Quenya course revision - proofreading thread

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Eirien
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Beitrag von Eirien » So Aug 10 2008 21:28

p. 59 A sentence may have verb objects in both dative and accusative objects.
-> "…in the dative and accusative case"? And maybe better: "verb's object"?

p. 61 trasure -> treasure

p. 64
Hilyalmë
We follow them.
-> Not rather 'Hilyalmet'?

p. 64
Sinomë marimmë liet.
Here we abide as two people.
Re. dual in this phrase, does Nenwë rather think of "two peoples divided (by fate)" (which should perhaps not be expressed in dual number) or "two peoples united (by kinship)" (which should)?

p. 66 if the pronouns can be used such -> like this, in this manner, in such a way, thus, …
p. 66 verb subject -> better: verb's subject
p. 68 choosen -> chosen
p. 72 soom -> soon
p. 76 the ’instrument’ by what -> which
p. 78 a ricë anaricië -> am(a)ricië? (PE17:94)
p. 78 aurë enta (that day)
maybe add 'future' –> 'that future day' for greater clearness?
p. 79 opintion -> opinion
p. 83 abite -> abide
p. 83 twon –> town

p. 85
it makes no sense to deny intentions in past tense conceptually
It does, though – you might e.g. wish to point out that you not only did not do, but refused (and never had the intention) to do a thing. I always thought that was where pa.t. avanë came in – or am I mixing up the verbs?

p. 86 ecco or hatal (spear)
According to VT45:12, N ech Q. ekko = 'spear' has meanwhile been identified as a misreading for 'spine'

p. 88 tme -> time

p. 89
the shorter ending -
na
Wrong line break ripping the hyphen off '-na'

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Thorsten
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Beitrag von Thorsten » Mo Aug 11 2008 9:19

@Ailinel:
p. 96, 13.1 : “Aurion neldé...” > neldë (??)
p. 97, 13.2.2 : “between the repsective” > respective
p. 97, 13.2.3 : “It is possibly that...” > possible
p. 102, 14.1 : “...approach the towers..” > the tower (sg.)
p. 105, 14.2.2 : “ Used with an adjectives, it implies...“ > with an adjective
p. 106, 14.2.4 : “witha vowel” > with a
p. 114, 15.2.9 : “Consequently, necesities...” > necessities
p. 118, 16,2.1 . “ “can neither be replaces” > replaced
p. 119, 16.2.3 : “Hísielo carië macileva” > macilwa (?)
p. 119, 16.2.3 : “The womans’ hiding... “ > The women’s..(??)
p. 140, 20.2.1 : “ninya (may)” > my
p 142, 20.3 : “word-initial NG- lead to n-...” > leads to (?)
p. 152, D 1 : “...would not compatible..” > would not be...
Changed all of them - thanks!

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Thorsten
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Beitrag von Thorsten » Mo Aug 11 2008 9:53

Eirien hat geschrieben:Some more typos and other minor stuff:

p. 8 Portugese -> Portuguese
var. occ.: pronomial -> pronominal
var. occ.: Tolkiens -> Tolkien's
p. 18 It is often used similar to -> similarly

p. 18
These three usages of the verb in singular, plural and dual with no ending, -r and -t are called personless verb forms.
I find this way of expression a little bit confusing, especially for a beginner – your could maybe add something along the line of: "… verbs ending ending -a or -¨ea in the singular or –r and –t in the plural and dual respectively"

p. 19 famililar form -> familiar forms
Okay.
p. 19
3. Person (animate)
3. Person (neuter)
Does this distinction really hold? I find that e.g. in German or Russian you can have animate neuter nouns, so wouldn't a less ambiguous way of labelling be 'animate' and 'inanimate'?
It's Tolkien's own terminology, see e.g. the table PE17:57.
p. 20
’To be’ is often left out when it is understood, and usually moves towards the end of the sentence.
Maybe add "when it is present" (otherwise it cannot move anywhere...)
Okay.
p. 24 Mithrimessë
I just wish to say that I don't feel too comfortable about this mix of Sindarin noun + Quenya ending, but I am also at a loss to provide a better alternative. I'm not sure if PE17:140 "Sindar was a Quenya translation of Mîthrim." may be interpreted in such a way as to allow a construction along the line of **"Nén Sindarwa", nor can I find any hint that such a name, or in fact any Quenya name for this lake, was at all in existence...
It kind of hinges on the assumption what the Noldor would have done - some words we know were Quenyarized, like Khazâd > casar. The trouble is that Mithrim is a bit of geography known to any reader of the Silmarillion, but any Quenya version of it I could come up with is not - so even if I had a plausible one, I'd probably not use it here.
p. 24
tulcë rancu (strong arms)
maybe better "pair of arms" (to avoid confusion with homophonous 'arms' <arms> necessarily
p. 47 ’Galadriel ist not a dwarf’ -> is
p. 47 The evening is not being cold -> maybe: is not cold now?

p. 48 a plural ’yourself’ -> yourselves
p. 48 you two watch yourself –> yourselves

p. 48 as if the -r- in the ending would be a plural marker -> was
Or maybe: "treating the -r- in the ending as a plural marker"?

p. 48 their arms arose -> rose
Okay to all.
p. 47
Uan úmëa. (I am not being angry.)
I wonder, can úmëa = 'evil' also be translated as 'angry'? Wouldn't rúsea = 'wrathful' or rusca, ruxa = 'wroth' (PE 17:188) fit the bill much better?
Well, isn't that cute to stumble across the German origin of the course in such little details? 'Ich bin nicht boese' translates of course both meanings, but I decided to replace 'angry' by 'evil' here in order not to lengthen an already lengthy vocabulary list.

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Roman
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Beitrag von Roman » Mo Aug 11 2008 11:50

lessons 16-20

p.118, 120
>alta valto

Perhaps better alma (PE17:146), since valto is from the conception in Qenya where the Valar were 'the happy folk'.

p.118, 134
>cotumoron

>> cotumóron (?)

p.118
>Valimaro

>> Valimáro (?)

p.119
>macileva
>maciliva

>> macilwa, macilíva?

p.120
>Indisenna

>>Indissenna?

p.124, 126
>Ualme use.
>We cannot flee.
>us- to escape

A late Quenya alternative could be #rehta- from REK- 'recover, get out/away, save from ruin/peril/loss' (PE17:38).

p. 128, 130
>fairienyan.

Again I would prefer later Quenya alternatives like *lerie, *lérasse from LER-.

p.129, 130
>Culu túvina

Culu was struck out and final -u is generally seen to become -o in Quenya, so perhaps it would be better to use the alternatives culo, cullo.

p.134
>mahtalenen

>>mahtalénen?

>Atacénala
>Looking back

Wouldn't ata- imply 'look a second time'? There is nattire 'look back' (PE17:166), however deleted.

p.134
>hísievea

>>hísiévea?

>terlelyante

>>tellelyante

p.140
>alenyalima
>beyond recall

>>arenyalima?

>Yando
>also

Again, I think something like yea is preferable since yando looks like an adverb formed with -o.

p.141
>nénesse

>>nenesse

p.142

>VQ: hunie

>>huine

>EQ: falme (wave) -> VQ: hwalma

>>falma?
But as I understand it according to VT41:8 ph > hw only occured before u and in that conception actually both in Noldorin and Vanyarin Quenya. Earlier conceptions had hu-, fu- as variants in Quenya. Otherwise Vanyarin Quenya keeps bilabial ph-.

p.144
>mathale (a fight)

>>mahtale

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Eirien
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Beitrag von Eirien » Do Aug 14 2008 21:14

p. 96
>Maglos tells: -> narrates, reports, ...

p. 98
>even if -r would be -> is
(which however doesn’t lead to a long -i- if the ending is -i already
-> closing bracket missing

p. 102 orcwarriors -> orc warriors

p. 103 to form compound -> 'a compound' or 'compounds'

p. 105 differenc -> difference

p. 106 or more precise –> precisely

p. 111
The forms in Aorist are most irregular.
Do you mean to say that they are highly irregular, or for the most part? If the latter –> 'mostly'

p. 112
as if they would be -> were
Tentanenyë i tengwa sírenna. (I pointed the sign towards the river.)
If we are talking about a direction sign, maybe better: tanna = (PE 17:186)?

p. 113
as if the verb would have been (2x) –> 'were', (or: 'had been')
according to what the specific meaning -> delete either 'what' or 'the'
consructions -> constructions
óla nin ([it] dreams for me; I dream)
In OE and ME impersonal verbs were not uncommon, there is e.g. 'me mette' (= 'I dreamed'), which is invariantly rendered '(it) dreamed to me' in the relevant literature.

p. 118 loosing -> losing

p. 119
Hísielo carië macileva (Hísiel’s making of a sword)
Often gerunds are used as verbal nouns, but other possibilities can occur:
Nenwëo mapalë massava (Nenwe’s seizing of bread)
I don't get it – what's the difference between these two examples? They're both gerunds governing another noun.
I even wonder if it makes much sense to elaborate on the difference between gerunds and verbal nouns – English grammarians, for one, agree nowadays that there is none, gerunds are in fact verbal nouns by definition. What about the situation in Quenya, did Tolkien ever refer to the term 'verbal noun', or is "enyalien: ... in infinitive (or gerundial) form en-yalië, here in dative "for the re-calling," but governing a direct object " in UT:317 our only reference?

p. 119
make sharp a sword -> a sword sharp
Merin mahtuvalye + Merin i mahtuvalye. -> mahtuvalyë

p. 120
Maite ohtar Hísiel ná? -> Maitë
mountaintop -> mountain top

p. 121 theree -> three
p. 124 how the letters look like -> what...like

p. 125
necesary -> necessary
can be used for in this meaning -> delete 'in'?
Men equétientë varyuvalmë i osto.
(They have said to us we shall defend the town.)
-> that we should

ones own action + ones choices -> one's
... an impersonal construction makes a lot of sense).
–> opening bracket missing

p. 126 beween -> between

p. 128
have much trust for -> in
used quite similar to –> -ly

p. 129 experss -> express
p. 130 verbform -> verb form
tára oron or oron tára (a high mountain)
-> set Quenya text off against English: tára oron or oron tára

p. 135 diminuitive (2x) -> diminutive

p. 141:
imme -> immë
imle (thou thyselves) -> imlë (thou thyself)
imle (thou thyselves (pl.)) -> imlë (ye yourselves)
intye -> intyë
imle (you yourself) -> imlë (you yourselves)
inte -> intë

p. 142
how it sounded -> what… like
intellegible -> intelligible
A number of differences exists -> exist

p. 143
works slightly different –> -ly
singular or nouns -> of
mahtie -> mahtië

p. 144
z.B. -> e. g.
...for some it is not quite clear from which conceptual phase of Tolkien’s work they are taken.
A bit ambiguous (readers might feel addressed by "some") – maybe add: 'words', or rephrase using e.g. 'in some instances'?

p. 151 There are two reasons that -> why

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Roman
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Beitrag von Roman » Fr Aug 15 2008 0:14

Another point: On p.27 it reads:

>Quenya works the same way. When an adverb is really associated with the subject, it is not
>marked by a special ending. Usually the adverb in Quenya follows the verb. In contrast to
>adjectives, adverbs cannot be marked for any plural, they remain in the same form even if
>the verb is in plural:

Unless I'm overlooking something this is based on PE17:73-74, where it is said:
Adverbs from adjectives. These were less used than in English. Whenever possible an adjective was used atrrib[utive] to the agent or subject; as he ran quick, - spoke soft - sat silent - it shone golden [...]
So Tolkien quite clearly talks about attributive adjectives, not endingless adverbs. The difference is that attributive adjectives do agree in number and in fact we see that in lassi lantar laurie. This would concern:

p.27 >Aiweli vílar linta >> linte
p.96 >Aurion tolto cennemme eressea morne rambai mandommo. >> eressie
p.134 >I eldar nelde hehtar Hísiel mandosse ar linta nallelyar. >> linte

Considering the comment But adverbial forms were available especially for when far separated from verb or subject one might make it lintave in the last example.

Ailinel
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Beitrag von Ailinel » Di Sep 09 2008 9:54

p. 29, 2.4.1: The Tengwar table gives the character rómen instead of óre.

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